Michigan Rotary Club
Generation Specific => 2nd Generation Specific => 2nd Generation Build Thread => : ITSWILL October 13, 2010, 09:18:07 PM
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So here's the story, I popped the engine in my turbo engine swapped 86 last summer and decided to use the engine from the 88 to replace it.
The next logical step was to pop a 20B in the now engineless 20B.
here are some of the pics.
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engine
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Paint completely stripped.
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Lots of bondo.
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T70 turbo
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stock 20B
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Megasquirt
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stripped 20B
Sorry about all the separate pics. Ill setup a photobucket tomorrow
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Build looks good. I want a 20B
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Thanks,
I have done a s'load of work so far and spent a lot of coin so far.
Unfortunately there is still a lot of work left and a lot of money to spend.
I hope painting it will give me more inspiration.
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I do paint work if u need help.
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I need all the help I can get. This shit is an art and I am an engineer LOL.
I am sending you a pm with my phone number. Call me if you think you have some time to help. I will be working on the car probably all night tonight.
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The bondo work is almost done thanks to the help from some of my neighbours and andrew. Hopefully we will be spraying the sealer tomorrow.
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We will have that thing sprayed for sure tonight.
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I like the confidence.
I guess I'll have some more pics up soon then!
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I guess time flies when you are sanding bondo. Its getting sprayed today for sure though...
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Pics from last night.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0158.jpg?t=1287679501)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0159.jpg?t=1287679501)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0160.jpg?t=1287679501)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0161.jpg?t=1287679501)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0162.jpg?t=1287679501)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0164.jpg?t=1287679501)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0165.jpg?t=1287679501)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0166.jpg?t=1287679797)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0167.jpg?t=1287679797)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0168.jpg?t=1287679797)
I cant wait to wet sand it and start putting it back together!
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that is looking sharp. Great work so far.
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Now I just need $1000 worth of fenders, prolly $500 into a CF hood and we need to make a custom bumper. Lots of money and time left on this project.
That's what the winter is for!
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whats wrong with the fenders? are you going carbon fiber or just looking for replacement?
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I'm going wide body.
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Wow, looking good so far!
So you have 2! 20B 2nd gens now? Impressive, to say the least!
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Just the one 20b car and the ls1 car. I have been working on the 20b car for some time now, I have been close to having that car running quite a few times now but decided to go a different route every time. Now I am focusing on getting the rest of the car up to par before I get the engine finished.
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Car is beast (said with strong Russian accent) ;)
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Ah, my mistake; Still... awesome!
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(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0244.jpg)
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Nice to see the progress considering the fun it was watching you and andrew attempt to put the first coat on!!!!
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Ya it was pretty sticky.
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Got the fuel rails finished and the fuel lines done too.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0318.jpg)
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The fuel rails look great.
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mmm, that open LIM is practically drooling, saying "feed me dropped bolts!"
Looking very good so far!
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How did you know it says that? It won't shut up! It craves 6mm nuts and bolts.
In all seriousness, thanks again for the clarification on the MS.
As for an update, I wired up the main electrical stuff last night, battery, starter, alternator and engine fuse box. I relocated the battery to the passenger side bin area and relocated the engine fuses to the glove box area.
At the end of the night I was able to run a wire to the starter solenoid and manually crank the engine.
Hopefully I can finish the chassis wiring this coming weekend and crank it with the key!
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Sounds like you got a hell of a lot more done yesterday than I did. All I managed to do was break the condenser on the slave cylinder, break some exhaust bolts, somehow lose my oil feed line bolt and start to strip one of the starter bolt holes.
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You may want to take a page from AWFC3S's recent experience & plug or tape those open LIM runners ;)
Anyhow, good progress!
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Yeah, I have the uim on it now. But I think I will tape it back up anyway.
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I didn't finish the chassis wiring modifications last weekend but did get pretty close. Hopefully I will have the wiring back in the car soon, with the engine cranking with a key and the windows going up and down and all the light working ect...
I will post progress and some pics next week.
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love to see some pics, though if i had time i would try to see in person.
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I think I was a little hopeful, I still haven't completed the wiring. I did get the garage clean though.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0460.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0459.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0458.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0457.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0456.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0455.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0454.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0453.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/IMAG0461.jpg)
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Look at you go! Can't wait to mess it all up again this weekend.
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Lookin good! Nice place to be working on the cars over the winter, especially with that boiler/stove!
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How long will that clean last? Looking good. My garage is still clean from when you came over and helped me straighten things out. But then again i need ot work in it in order to mness it up lol. I would love to get some more time and come up and help you run wire.
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It's been a while since I have posted any updates on this. In the past few months I have finished the exhaust, done a ton of wiring and completed some final engine details. Two weeks ago Andrew and I installed a new brake booster, brake master cylinder, calipers and brake pads. This last weekend I finished welding in the cage and we gave it a quick coat of paint. Also Rich, Andrew and I started working on fitting my racing seats. Andrew managed to burn the shit out of his finger while scraping that black crap off the floor after I heated it up. I'll post some pics up soon of the progress. In the meanwhile maybe Andrew can post a pic of the new anus he has on his thumb.
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Ask, and you shall receive...
Here was the damage 2 days after... I'm sure you could imagine what it looked like when it happened.
Enjoy ;)
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll67/adubspyder/IMAG0176.jpg)
That black tar was so hot that it had adhered right to my skin, and when I went to pull it off it pulled of a huge chunk of skin. It didn't bleed, but hurt like hell. I was in shock when i pulled it off and saw my skin going with it.
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Well after a torch is used on it, i would assume that stuff was hot and not to touch. You had to take it one step further and show what not to do!! I hope it heals well.
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Damn! Nice thumbhole!
I can't wait to hear that 3 rotor. Hit me up after Oct. 8th. I can lend a hand. Maybe I will have bought myself a winter rx7 by then.
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Damn Andrew! That is nasty!
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Update:
The seats, harnesses and interior went in shortly after Andrew burned his thumb. Around the same time I installed the gauges (still need to wire them).
Just recently I got the garage cleaned up again and am working on it once again.
Last weekend I got a face cord of wood to keep warm.
Tonight I wired the ignition coils to the megasquirt.
Hopefully, with Andrew's help (which means Andrew doing it) I will get the hood smoothed out and repainted within the next few weeks.
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That's good to hear!
What colour are you painting it??
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That's good to hear!
What colour are you painting it??
Flat black
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I made a turbo support today. Still needs to be painted but it can wait until I know everything works.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01005.jpg)
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Here's a pic of the garage in its current condition and some work for Andrew on the saw horses.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/Garage/DSC01019.jpg)
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Also got the mirrors on today.
Random pictures of progress. Car is super dirty and fenders are on their way.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01010.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01011.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01009.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01018.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01013.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01014.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01012.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01016.jpg)
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Yesterdays accomplishments:
Tucked away some wires.
Connected the ignition coils (had to redo one of the connections)
Got the power windows working.
Fixed the starter.
Half finished wiring the radiator fan and horn.
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Finished wiring the electric fan, wired and installed the horns.
Found out where the magic black smoke was coming from and why my meter fuse kept blowing.
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The car is looking great. I need to get up there again and help you out on it some.
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I'll be working on it on Saturday if you can get away from the shop.
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She wont let me leave the shop to join you this saturday becuase we have a bridal show to prepare for on sunday.
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Saturday, eh.
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You are welcome to come by as well Chad. Let me know if you can make it.
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I'll probably be leaving Windsor just after noon on Saturday. I'll be taking my honduh. The 8 is scattered in pieces.
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Ok see you tomorrow.
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Wired up the reverse lights and alternator this weekend.
Also fixed some issues I was having with my fuel system.
Cleaned up a the engine wiring.
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I haven't updated this in a while but I bought a megasquirt 3 to run sequential ignition and fuel and have been spending a lot of time rewiring everything up.
Today in particular was pretty awesome. Andrew and I got it to start up for the first time.
http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/?action=view¤t=VIDEO0058.mp4 (http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/?action=view¤t=VIDEO0058.mp4)
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That is so awesome. I was hoping to be able to get up there, but charity wwas helping a friend prepare for their baby shower. This friday, i should be able to swing by your place in the evening if your going to be home, otherwise it will have to be sat.
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Thanks, just let me know when you are planning on coming over, I'll try to keep it running until then, being a rotary and all.
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Pulled the UIM off and tapped a hole for the brake booster since the Cosmo used an electric brake booster and did not have a suitable vacuum source. Also tapped a hole for my boost-a-pump boost sensor and put that in. I took the compressor housing off the turbo and tapped that for the wastegate boost source. Then I put everything back together and started it up for Groll69 and the KrazyKreiner.
Meanwhile, awfc3s was working on smoothing out the hood to get it ready for paint.
Earlier I ordered the parts for the wastgate dump tube and a few other parts.
It was a pretty successful day.
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thanks for starting it up. That 20b sounds awesome. I enjoyed turning a wrench or two for what little i was able to help you with it.
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thanks for the hand putting on the compressor housing!
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Awesome, it's alive! I'm guessing you're using the whole MS3 expansion board to make use of the extra I/O too?
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Awesome, it's alive! I'm guessing you're using the whole MS3 expansion board to make use of the extra I/O too?
Yeah I have a few ideas in my head for auxillary injection and a few other possibilities.
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Im still waiting on the parts for the wastgate dump pipe but other than that ang a good cleaning the engine bay is done for now.
This weekend I decided to modify the stock 2 thermostat housing to accept a filler neck and radiator cap. I used a 20lb cap and blocked the overflow hole as the radiator has a cap that is routed to an overflow already.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/DSC01008.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0445.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0446.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0447.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0473.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0478.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0476.jpg)
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Also, Im not sure but I think Andrew is very close to getting the hood ready for paint. I want to say thanks for his hard work!
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0452.jpg)
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beautiful!
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thanks
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Undertray and oil lines got done today.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0532.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0533.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0535.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0548.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0549.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0551.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/IMAG0553.jpg)
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ooohhhh I like the duct work.
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I know it may sound like sacrilege, but you might want to consider punching a couple vents in the undertray so that any possible leaks or water that runs under the hood has a place to drain. Definitely do it behind the radiator, IC & oil cooler so that you don't allow the pressure there to escape tho.
The fab work looks very nice, and everything seems to fit well. Did you have use of a sheetmetal brake, or did you do it with a couple 2x4's and clamps? Either way, it came out well man!
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I know it may sound like sacrilege, but you might want to consider punching a couple vents in the undertray so that any possible leaks or water that runs under the hood has a place to drain. Definitely do it behind the radiator, IC & oil cooler so that you don't allow the pressure there to escape tho.
The fab work looks very nice, and everything seems to fit well. Did you have use of a sheetmetal brake, or did you do it with a couple 2x4's and clamps? Either way, it came out well man!
screw that! just make sure the top side is super polished and accelerate and it will all drain out the back! lol.
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I know it may sound like sacrilege, but you might want to consider punching a couple vents in the undertray so that any possible leaks or water that runs under the hood has a place to drain. Definitely do it behind the radiator, IC & oil cooler so that you don't allow the pressure there to escape tho.
The fab work looks very nice, and everything seems to fit well. Did you have use of a sheetmetal brake, or did you do it with a couple 2x4's and clamps? Either way, it came out well man!
Yeah, a couple holes might be a good idea. The sides were bent up with a brake and the rest was bent with a piece of angle iron and C clamps.
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Well I drove over an hour to Andrews house to put her up for the winter. Everything went pretty well until it died and wouldn't start right in front of his house. Lucky me, we just pushed it in the rest of the way. I'll have to check the logs and see what happened. One way or another it was a fun drive. I also want to say thanks to Topless for all the help with the tuning so far.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/th_VIDEO0022.jpg) (http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m617/WPhilippin/20B%20RX7/VIDEO0022.mp4)
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It was a beautiful day for the drive down there. I am glad the car died right in front of Andrews house and not a few miles away. That made it getting it to its winter home that much easier.
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Today I was thinking about that drive to Andrew's house in the video. I found myself driving my LS1 car down the same roads, but making sweet open wastegate 20B sounds... I think I really need to get back to this project.
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Get it up and running again! I lost the video I had of wonderful 20b burnouts and I need another!
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I am finally getting back to this project. Unfortunately the 20B is not going back into the car. But on the positive side I am taking on a new engine configuration that should Be a lot of fun as well as a great learning experience.
I will be replacing the 20b with a Carbureted S4 6 port 13b. The engine will be a semi-bridge port with the primary throttle blades of the carburetor feeding street ported primary ports. The Carburetor secondaries will feed the bridge-ported secondaries and Aux ports.
The ignition will consist of a distributor with an MSD box and FC coils.
I am hoping for about 200 whp and am considering up to a 100 shot of nitrous.
Thanks to Dondo, I have a donor engine to work with. The engine had no compression on any face. What Marcus and I found is that all the seals were stuck everywhere. The rotors have been sitting in gasoline for a couple weeks now and will hopefully let go of the side seals soon!
Additionally the front rotor housing had major wear down the center and the front iron was blown out between the exhaust chamber and the coolant passages.
I will be making my own exhaust header that extends to about the rear axel before merging. Similar to what is described here. http://www.racingbeat.com/mazda/performance/rotary-tech-tips/configurations.html (http://www.racingbeat.com/mazda/performance/rotary-tech-tips/configurations.html)
As this project continues I am going to try to list all the technical resources I use and find most relevant. It seems there is a lot of hearsay when it comes to building a solid NA engine and I would like to help sort through some of that.
This build will be focused around a roughly $500 budget which should make it interesting. I want to keep it cheap well because I don't want to spend a lot of money as is common with a lot of RX7 guys especially ones working on NA engines.
As for the 20B I have big plans for that down the road...
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This will be a fun project for sure! I'd be happy if we made 200whp, though I know people make over 200whp with no porting on the 6-port engines somehow. I feel it should be bridge ported as well, and see what can be done.
From what I've read it's advised to not bridge the auxiliary ports (This seems to be due to the fact that the 6-port closes super late already).
I think the header will benefit from long runners, that will be cool to create too. I think some of this will be good experience for the LS car as well.
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I just ordered an O-ring kit from Atkins. Before I did I thought I had to do some research since the replacement front Iron I got was for an S5. Turns out their kit covers 86 though 92 and comes with the extra o-ring for S5.
Anyhow I found this write up that describes the differences in front Irons that I am talking about.
http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/oring.htm (http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/oring.htm)
Now I guess I have to start cleaning parts...
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This will be a fun project for sure! I'd be happy if we made 200whp, though I know people make over 200whp with no porting on the 6-port engines somehow. I feel it should be bridge ported as well, and see what can be done.
From what I've read it's advised to not bridge the auxiliary ports (This seems to be due to the fact that the 6-port closes super late already).
I think the header will benefit from long runners, that will be cool to create too. I think some of this will be good experience for the LS car as well.
The simulator I ran seemed to think it would want to close at 60 degrees ABDC. Like you said it closes pretty late at 80 degrees. Since the bridge is what becomes your opening point I think it is still worthwhile to bridge port the aux port such that you get more area at the opening point but only take it so far up that the bridge closes at around 60 degrees
(https://www.rx8club.com/attachments/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/150955d1264908588-aux-port-delete-fi-discussion-s4_duration.jpg)
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Just for comparison this is the timing on the Renesis
(https://www.rx8club.com/attachments/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/150958d1264908588-aux-port-delete-fi-discussion-renesis_duration.jpg)
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I gotcha, so you're thinking of a partial Aux bridge sort of, which doesn't close any later.
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Correct,
I'm still looking for a good NA housing if anyone has one.
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You know i think this will run really good, if we can make the bridge port closes at 60 ABDC. From what I've seen, people that usually do this either bridge the aux ports above the aux ports, or don't bother to bridge them at all. I think you might be on to something.
I've got an extra housing or two, but they're questionable.
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I forgot to mention I got these in last week.
(https://preview.ibb.co/b3A7wm/20180112_180038.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nETubm)
They are 2.5" diameter by 2 inch tall aluminum round stock. I paid $15 for them on ebay.
I'm going to drill a 3/8 hole in the center of them and use them for solid engine mounts.
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I did that before, worked out great - you can just order up high quality hardware from mcmaster carr and call it good.
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Finally got to do some work on the engine in the past few days.
I cut the little fins out of the exhaust ports with a sawzall
(https://preview.ibb.co/ka7bpc/20180317_101630.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m0zBNx)
And then I ground it all down to be just like a turbo insert
(https://preview.ibb.co/fzx99c/20180317_111411.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dZ4ZaH)
All the housings and irons cleaned up, just need to be washed and then powder coated
(https://preview.ibb.co/fd799c/20180317_150929.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nqD5hx)
Made an EGR block off
(https://preview.ibb.co/cquZaH/20180317_155300.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kgaJ2x)
The water pump inlet was corroded to shit
(https://preview.ibb.co/cHzZaH/20180317_174907.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ksENUc)
After Filling the holes with the TIG and filing
(https://preview.ibb.co/jkBEaH/20180317_201140.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dM7nvH)
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Also, managed to get the son on a bitching side seals out with a ton of prying. Now I have to figure out what pats I'm going to need to replace.
Also, have been doing some research about the impact of compression ratio on power output and have found that the general rule of thumb is 4% max power increase per 1 compression ratio.
With that said going from a 9.4 CR to 9.7 CR rotor would yield a whopping 3 HP max. I guess I'll be sticking with the 9.4s I have.
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Those parts cleaned up nicely, have a color scheme planned out? Well done with that water pump, that was really corroded.
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I'll probably paint it black and chrome like I did the RX-8 engine. I need to measure the apex seals up and see if they are still good and then gather a few other parts and I should finally be ready to build this thing.
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Marcus and I went and borrowed porting templates from Kevin this weekend. We finished threes street port on a scrap iron and started a sweet cheese port but got confused about the other holes in the template...
(https://preview.ibb.co/hYjHc7/20180325_182713.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fMZuPn)
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(https://preview.ibb.co/mXMijn/20180325_182747.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g8GG4n)
<a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>easy photo upload[/url]
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It's the "magic port", that combined with cheese ports, = maximum power.
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I picked up one of the Pro Jay knock off intake manifolds from JW Performance last night. Supposedly a better performer than the Racing beat manifold. I'll let you guys know what I think of it when it comes in.
This will keep my options open for a carburetor or fuel injection since it has a standard Holley 4150 flange.
(http://www.vpw.com.au/product_images/511625_1.jpg)
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Oh nice! Is it a 6 port variant? Or will you have to modify the ports to make it a 6 port manifold? That's the type of design I was thinking of too, leaves a lot of room for options.
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it is for a 6 port however the other ports are not separated in the intake manifold.
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It's the "magic port", that combined with cheese ports, = maximum power.
thats the direct injection port :)
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If I go for a 200 shot of nitrous, do you guys think I should have studs in it?
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Maybe not, looks like they're about $500!
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I'd say so, I believe the S4 engines are weak over 400. Judge ITO on the Rx7Club forums might have some good advice, I think he's the nitrous guy, I'll see if I can see any posts that are relevant to this.
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I'll have to talk to the guys over at ARP and see what they can do for me.